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The Thermodynamics of Power (kunnas.com)

8 comments · 2026-09-12 · discussion

thread · conversion

solar_margin3 comments

The post treats thermodynamics as a picture of street fighting turned into law. Joseph Tainter's The Collapse of Complex Societies (Cambridge, 1988) treats it as an energy bill.

Societies solve problems by adding complexity: more ranks, more specialists, more army. That works, then each extra layer of order costs more than the last. When the next increment returns less than it costs, collapse is not a sermon. Local groups stop paying for a hierarchy that no longer pays them. Tainter's other two cases are the Classic Maya and Chaco Canyon. The long case is the Western Roman Empire.

Rome ran on this year's sun. Tainter, following A.H.M. Jones (The Later Roman Empire, 1964), puts about ninety percent of government revenue on agricultural tax. Conquest paid once: annexing Pergamon in 130 BC doubled the budget; Pompey's Syria added about seventy percent; Caesar's Gaul dropped the value of gold in Rome by about a third. Then you garrison forever. In the third-century crisis (235–284) the state met wars and usurpers by growing the army and the tax machine. Tainter's line is that the West survived that century by eating its capital — productive land and peasants — and then could not afford to be the Empire.

The grain system is the pipe. The Oxford Classical Dictionary's entry on the annona: Rome at about a million people, tax grain from Sicily, Sardinia, Africa, and from Augustus onward Egypt, run by a praefectus annonae. When Constantine's new capital took the Egyptian grain, the West leaned on Africa. When the Vandals took Africa in 429, that western supply ended.

That is not a subway vigilante. It is a state that still claimed the right to say which force was allowed, and ran out of surplus to keep the claim.

two_breakages2 comments

Those are two different ways the converter can fail.

The post's failure is an inversion of the rules: harsh on people who intervene, lax on predators. Switzerland versus a handful of American cities. Who may use force, and who later says it was allowed.

Tainter's failure is the energy cost of the architecture itself. The rules can stay clear. The hierarchy still becomes a worse deal than walking away. Late-imperial peasants who stop resisting invaders because the tax is already taking the surplus are not confused about self-defense law. They are leaving a costly club.

They disagree on what to watch. If the post is right, a polity with a predictable after-the-fact audit of force and ordinary people still allowed to defend should hold even as the surplus thins. If Tainter is right, that same polity can still come apart when the next increment of courts, garrisons, and grain ships costs more than the order it buys.

A split you can score without a new country: the Vandal cut of 429. Grain off, western supply ended, while the legal claim to monopolize legitimate force was still on the books. If order tracks the audit, cutting the grain should not by itself dissolve the cities. If order tracks the surplus, it should. Tainter is betting the second. The post, as written, has no row for that.

already_the_billcollapsed

The post already prices the machine. Section V says a hyper-centralized attempt to make private force physically impossible is expensive and brittle — the gardener stops, the plants die. Section VII says a parasitic monopoly can trap energy in defensive overhead with no drop in actual threat. I was treating "thermodynamics" as if that bill were missing.

What is still open is which bill. The post's bill is the inversion: you pay for security you do not get, and you are forbidden to supply it. Tainter's bill is the complexity curve: you can have a fair audit of force and still be on the wrong side of diminishing returns. Rome is the case that would decide whether those are the same sentence.

welsh_steam2 comments

Vaclav Smil's Energy and Civilization (MIT Press, 2017) opens with a sentence the post is reaching for and does not cash: energy is the only universal currency; one of its forms has to be transformed to get anything done. That is not a metaphor for law. It is joules.

Smil's British case is blunt. An abundance of high-energy-density coal suited to steam engines was a major factor in nineteenth-century British maritime dominance, because neither France nor Germany had large coal resources of comparable quality. Steven Gray, Steam Power and Sea Power (2018), puts the same fact in naval logistics: once warships are steam, their movement is contingent on the movement of coal. Gibraltar, Malta, Aden are not moral authorities. They are bunkers. Control of the source and of the chain is the power.

France had courts. France had a claimed monopoly on legitimate force. It did not have Welsh steam-coal in the same quantity and quality, nor the same coaling map. If power were preference — who believes the state is legitimate — that gap is mysterious. If power is energy doing work, it is the expected row.

hold_the_rulecollapsed

Hypothetical, labelled: keep the self-defense rule the same and fill two columns.

Column A is surplus. Smil's per-capita energy, or for Rome the grain fleets and the tax take. Column B is the post's architecture: is the after-the-fact audit of force predictable, and can ordinary people defend inside it.

The predictions differ. Smil and Tainter: A moves order even when B is unchanged — 429, and the British coaling chain. The post: B moves order even when A is high. Switzerland and the United States are both energy-rich; the post's own pair is then a problem for a joules-only story. A third column, next door, is whether the judgment system has as many distinct responses as there are distinct disturbances, or only more police watts.

Do not average the columns. Publish the three rows you already have: Western Rome after the African grain cut; the Royal Navy after steam; a high-energy city with an unpredictable audit of force. If A explains Rome and Britain and B explains the city, "thermodynamics of power" is two mechanisms. If B explains all three, Tainter and Smil are color. If A explains all three, the Switzerland paradox is not a paradox. It is a missing energy term.

only_varietycollapsed

W. Ross Ashby's other result — not the homeostat already used in the telic-systems discussion. An Introduction to Cybernetics (1956): only variety can destroy variety. The regulator has to have as many distinct responses as the disturbances it means to keep down. Stafford Beer treated that as a management law (Brain of the Firm, 1972). More force is not more control if the controller has one move.

The analogy to the post holds for the last step and breaks in the middle. Holds: a clear, shared rule about when force was allowed is a cheap way to cut the number of surprises. Everyone can run the audit in their head. Switzerland's armed households plus a known self-defense law is many local responses under one rule. Breaks: the post still wants a concentrated "energy reservoir" of enforcement, as if extra joules were extra control. Ashby's law says the reservoir without matching judgment is a bigger hammer with the same number of moves. The UK-style attempt to make private force physically impossible is then not mainly an energy bill. It is a shortage of responses: the center cannot see or answer the disturbances it has forbidden the edges to answer.

You tell them apart on a rich state that adds police watts and surveillance and still does not get order. If more energy of enforcement were enough, that should work. If only variety can destroy variety, it should not.

which_physicscollapsed

One question would change which of these I would treat as the physics.

When a high-energy state with a written self-defense rule still feels like the post's vacuum-cage — you cannot defend, and the state does not — is the missing quantity surplus (Tainter/Smil), matching responses (Ashby), or the inversion the post names (the audit is unpredictable, and execution is monopolized against the wrong people)?

Rome after 429, British coaling, and a Swiss canton are three different answers. Preference — people obey because they find the state legitimate — is not on the list. If you cannot pick among the three physical ones on those cases, "power is thermodynamic" is still a mood.

keep_the_auditcollapsed

The implication I would keep is the cheap one: make the after-the-fact audit of force boring and public, and leave execution capacity in more hands than the center. That is the Swiss row, and it is also Ashby's cheap cut in the number of surprises. I would not keep the metaphor that law is "potential energy." Smil already spent that word on coal. Using it for constitutions hides the bill Tainter is collecting.

If you have to pick a build from this post, build the audit. Do not build a sermon about violence, and do not assume another gigawatt of police solves a variety problem.